Will our communication & feelings be shut down by our brains

[eMTe]

ins?

I had a productive conversation with my friend and we both came to similar (rare thing nowadays) conclusion.

1. Our brains will in nearby future shut down our language communication, because it is inefficient. Human language is capable of lies and deception, so, in terms of evolution, verbal language will become obsolete. Any cooperation will be available through other means, like various sensors and cables sticked directly into our brains, providing the basic knowledge what we really want/think/pursue.

2. Feelings will be shut down by brains, because "feelings" make humans unstable. Evolution must be predictable. Feelings (love, hatred, disrespect, emotions, memories) are probably useful now, but will become obsolete soon.

3. We both agreed that there's no way to stop it. We are drowned in the process.

[Scythe]

I liked this better when it was "bra." If it was tight enough, it might even be plausible.

But no, I cannot see this happening in the near future, or ever for that matter. It would be regression, not evolution.

Unless you're talking about some kind of forced evolution, as you seem to imply by sensors and cables. Which will not happen either.

Besides, we'll have destroyed ourselves long before we experience any further significant evolution. There is no way to stop that.

[eMTe]

I cannot see this happening in the near future

You DON'T WANT to see this. But it probably happens already.

As for the "near future" the term is debatable. If you mean "during your lifetime" I agree, scientifically observed shutdown won't happen in XXIst century. But it must happen at some point.

[Scythe]

You DON'T WANT to see this. But it probably happens already.

NO IT DOESN'T. I can talk like this too.

Maybe it's happening in an isolated laboratory where unscrupulous scientists have kept generations of people isolated for their entire lives, thus creating an artificial environment that has nothing in common with the "real" world. I might grant you that.

[jayenkai]

I've never spoken a word to any of you guys, yet I feel I know you all quite well. It already is happening!

[edit]But I'm not wearing a bra.[/edit]

[Tormuse]

Well, speaking for myself, my ability to think and communicate gets shut down when I see the typical *contents* of a bra...

Seriously, though, as Scythe said, are we talking about natural evolution or some kind of artificial evolution being forced on us by science?

If natural, then I'd say no, it won't happen, because evolution only occurs if the new version has such a big advantage that the old version dies out entirely. In this case, you're suggesting that people who can "think together" will have an advantage over people who can speak to each other. The thing is that the "talkers" will still be able to eat and breathe and reproduce and all the other things living beings do, so they'll still thrive. The only thing that could stop that, I think, is if the ability to talk suddenly became unattractive to everyone and the talkers stopped reproducing. That won't happen, because, no matter how much society advances, there are always people who cling to the past. Heck, we're all examples of that when you consider that we all met on these forums, in part, due to a fascination with old video games!

Human language is capable of lies and deception, so, in terms of evolution, verbal language will become obsolete.

I value honesty very highly, so I agree that it would be nice if all the liars die out, (I mean that in the nicest way possible) but unfortunately, people lie because it benefits them and helps them survive, so lying isn't something that evolution screens out. If anything, evolution sanctions liars! I mean sure, it benefits society when everyone is honest and works together, but no matter how much we work toward a Utopian state, there will always be some individual somewhere who will try to take more than his fair share just because he can, and lying and deceiving will help him do it. If some change comes about that causes people to lose their ability to communicate verbally and forces people to be honest, there will be a *lot* of resistance to it. Don't get me wrong; I find it sad and frustrating when people lie to me and deceive me and it can be very hurtful, but the depressing truth is that the world is full of people who value dishonesty.

2. Feelings will be shut down by brains, because "feelings" make humans unstable. Evolution must be predictable. Feelings (love, hatred, disrespect, emotions, memories) are probably useful now, but will become obsolete soon.

Now, we get into all kinds of philosophical debate. A lot of people believe that the purpose of life is to be happy or to make others happy. If happiness no longer exists, then what do we live for? What will drive us? I have more to say on this subject, but I have to go to work now...

3. We both agreed that there's no way to stop it. We are drowned in the process.

I'm not convinced the process will start.

[Zyx]

Count me in as being very skeptical of this idea. Like Tormuse, I fail to see the evolutionary drivers that would lead to to end of verbal communication. Barring the Borg from Star Trek or the linguistical hacking from Snow Crash, I find this really hard to happen for many reasons.

Why would evolution need to be predictable? If anything, it's the exact opposite. Evolution has no direction or a goal, because it's an emergent process not a thing in itself. Also, many species need lies and deception to survive and have perfected these through evolution. I fail to see why evolution would "perfect" these out of humans. A far more better case can be made that they are an essential skills for survival.

Verbal communication is anything but inefficient, we're where we are in the food chain because we're story-telling apes. Sure, analog communication in general has certain properties digital communication lacks like self-healing properties, but verbal communication is very robust. A bit of entropy and your digital copy of The Bible is unintelligible, but the verbal version has just couple of oddities like the forbidden fruit being an apple instead of a banana.

Evolution does not make things philosophically perfect, the end results are usually anything but Platonian ideals.

Utopias without feelings or with "perfect" communication are quite often explored in sci-fi. First two that come to mind are Christian Bale's Equilibrium and Jim Carrey's Liar, Liar. Even if we ended up in either film's scenario, it's not evolution that brings us there.

[Chroelle]

I wanted to say something about this, but then Zyx went and said what I wanted to say.
Lying is a big part of the strategy that got humans to where they are. Lying is nothing but a survival technique (a strategy to prevail and get the best for ourselves). It is survival of the fittest, and as such it would never remove that. I fear more a decline in the importance of language, instead of visual aid. More and more things are made visual to suit people across language barriers. Look at any app youhave used today, and you will see that icons are hardly texted anymore - they are explained through pictograms. THAT I fear could harm language, but not in a way where we dont talk anymore, more in a way that we get to speak the same language. A language based on pictures more than words. AGAIN - NOT IN THIS CENTURY.
I am pretty sure that humans are closing in on the endline of biological evolution, and so we are talking technological implants from now on. Look at it this way - nature uses evolution to give species abilities they need but dont have - but we have the same abilities ourselves now. Oh, you cant hear so well, here is a hearing aid. Need a new and stronger hip - here you go. Need to bike faster uphill? Here is a pill for that. I see a problem with us getting so aided that we dont break down in the tempo that we should. Dont get me wrong - I want to live to be 100, but not if that means living solely due to a bunch of implants and being hindered in my actions...

Feelings are what evolves us now, and I see them coming a more and more significant part of our lives. I am afraid we will only make decisions based on feelings which will make us all more like children. I want something now, and I dont care if it will make my stomach hurt in an hour.

[Zyx]

THAT I fear could harm language, but not in a way where we dont talk anymore, more in a way that we get to speak the same language. A language based on pictures more than words. AGAIN - NOT IN THIS CENTURY.

所以，我听说你喜欢象形的语言。

[eMTe]

Wow, a lot of stuff to read!

I'll answer when I have more time.

[Drasir-Vel]

It's good to hear from you again Chroelle.

[Chroelle]

THAT I fear could harm language, but not in a way where we dont talk anymore, more in a way that we get to speak the same language. A language based on pictures more than words. AGAIN - NOT IN THIS CENTURY.

所以，我听说你喜欢象形的语言。

أفعل مثل الصور التوضيحية نعم. أنا أعمل مع الأطفال.

And thanks DV. Its good to be back.

[Zyx]

أفعل مثل الصور التوضيحية نعم. أنا أعمل مع الأطفال.

Arabic isn't a language which is written in pictures, unlike Chinese. Just pointing out that language based on pictures has already been done many times and is actually quite ancient way to communicate, with many drawbacks.

[Scythe]

Arabic isn't a language which is written in pictures, unlike Chinese.

Chinese characters are not pictographs. They evolved from them, but "modern" Chinese characters are mostly phonetic.

[Zyx]

Arabic isn't a language which is written in pictures, unlike Chinese.

Chinese characters are not pictographs. They evolved from them, but "modern" Chinese characters are mostly phonetic.

True, but most of the letters a still technically tiny pictures of things? However, my research into the terrible future of written language brought me to this abomination.

[eMTe]

Isolated laboratory called Earth.

Isolated laboratory called your mind.

What you said is interesting, because you just made a difference between "natural" evolution and some kind of loosely understood "artificial" evolution. It's one of the points where I don't agree with many people I discuss the problem with. My views are largely holistic, so I don't see any difference between what is believed to be "natural" (people usually think about greenery and stuff when thinking of "nature") and "artificial" (plastic, cities, computers, etc.). For me what is in common understanding "natural" smoothly turns into what is understood as "artificial". After all, whatever happens is restricted to the periodic table.

I'm talking about some sort of eugenics. I don't see that as the same thing at all.

EDIT: I goofed and hit edit instead of reply. Sorry... I destroyed most of what you wrote... Scythe

[eMTe]

people lie because it benefits them and helps them survive

Now it works. But will it work in future?

I have more to say on this subject

With time more and more people will have more and more to say on various and more varied and complex subjects. It's called evolution.

Evolution has no direction or a goal, because it's an emergent process not a thing in itself.

It's still debatable.

Verbal communication is anything but inefficient

Hardly acceptable by me. But I will write more on this in future if you're still interested.

Evolution does not make things philosophically perfect

Sure it doesnt. But people still discuss things for some unknown reason, huh?

humans are closing in on the endline of biological evolution, and so we are talking technological implants from now on.

Like I said above - I don't see the difference between biology and technology.

nature uses evolution

It's tautology.

we will only make decisions based on feelings which will make us all more like children. I want something now, and I dont care if it will make my stomach hurt in an hour.

You say "more like children" - I say "more like highly evolved apes who understand what drives children (and also mentally disabled people) and how to apply this knowledge into future development".

[Railwaymodeler]

Nonverbal communication may be the future for humanity. Lies, deception, trickery, those are what blocks our best efforts at creating a peaceful planet. I would go so far as to say that without lies and deception, the fundamental system of Communism may even work. The idea that the sum of society is made up equally by each member will never work so long as the concept of being able to lie and trick others exists.

I imagine it may be very painful for humanity if suddenly introduced. A lot of "dirty laundry" or "skeletons in the closet" would suddenly come out. However, humans are amazingly adaptable; In 1900, scientists pondered what the invention of electricity and the light bulb would do to us. Perpetual daylight, it was thought, would destroy us.

But, whatever does not destroy humanity, can make it stronger.

Perhaps some parts of a nonverbal society are already coming forward, too. Maria and I share a very deep psychological bond, and many times we lay in bed, or sit on the sofa, and almost carry a conversation just looking into each others' eyes, and with slight hand and body movements. Perhaps a sort of first step towards a non-verbal communication system.

So far as the title, no, no one's bra will shut verbal communications. Unless we remember the Will Smith movie, Wild Wild West, where one of the US Marshalls, disguised as a "painted lady" at a saloon, had a mind control device hidden in a bra.

[Scythe]

Isolated laboratory called Earth.

Isolated laboratory called your mind.

What you said is interesting, because you just made a difference between "natural" evolution and some kind of loosely understood "artificial" evolution. It's one of the points where I don't agree with many people I discuss the problem with. My views are largely holistic, so I don't see any difference between what is believed to be "natural" (people usually think about greenery and stuff when thinking of "nature") and "artificial" (plastic, cities, computers, etc.). For me what is in common understanding "natural" smoothly turns into what is understood as "artificial". After all, whatever happens is restricted to the periodic table.

I'm talking about some sort of eugenics. I don't see that as the same thing at all.

Oops. I accidentally hit edit instead of quote!

I'm sorry eMTe!! I need an artificial evolution boost to my bra!

[Pater Alf]

Nonverbal communication may be the future for humanity. Lies, deception, trickery, those are what blocks our best efforts at creating a peaceful planet.

I don't think a world without lies would be a more peaceful one. They can be helpful to not hurt the feelings of another being and therefore remain peace and prevent conflicts. I don't want to know what would happen if everybody always has to say the truth.

Perhaps some parts of a nonverbal society are already coming forward, too. Maria and I share a very deep psychological bond, and many times we lay in bed, or sit on the sofa, and almost carry a conversation just looking into each others' eyes, and with slight hand and body movements. Perhaps a sort of first step towards a non-verbal communication system.

Sorry, but that has nothing to do with non-verbal communication. In my eyes that's a mixture between a deep understanding for another person that you got because of verbal communication in the past and some aspects of sexuality (which might be considered as some kind of non-verbal communication).