Classic male and female

Post by **Chroelle** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:02

For ages there have been debates on the male role and female role in society.
In the fifties the man was the bread provider and lawnmover, while the woman raised the kids.
In the sixties, the man was getting softer and more feminine, and the female toughened up, going on the workplace like never before.
In the seventies, this continued, and we had an androgynous gender where men and women were equals (or so the ideology was).
In the eighties, the men had to be COOL and WELL dressed (in those times standards) and soft. The women had to be gigly and be very feminine again.
In the nineties, the men lived on the whole soft eighties man, but tried to get back to a more masculine self, that would be tough and ruff. The woman tried at the same time to get even tougher and be more masculine.
Now we have tried for so many years to think of what the woman want from us. What is it that women want, and how is the classic man in these times?

What would you say that the classic man is? And what is the classic female.

I have always heard from girlfriends that they wanted a soft and tender man, that would treat them like a princess, but somehow they always went home with the asshole that treated them like dirt, while the gentle guys ended up being their best friend.
Men also say that they want a feminine girl that needs them, and somehow they always end up going home with a girl that after a few weeks turns out to be their new mom....

What is your oppinion of the classic genders and why do we do the things we do.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:29

With regards to who people go home with, this gets quite interesting. Girls tend to want a soft and tender man but a lot also look for someone strong, they can depend on and feel safe with as well. The 'confident assholes' quite clearly show this feature. What's also interesting is the way many girls change their desires as they get older suddenly realising what sort of person they should go for.

Then again, the same could be said for men. A large proportion want a woman who needs them, some even want the 'new mom' sort of relationship you described.

Having said all of this, these are still stereotypes and really don't fit all!After a while, you realise the ideal way to be is simply to be yourself.Do what you feel comfortable with. Whether it 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's style, just do whatever is you. Then you can answer the 'why do we do it' with a simple, 'because that's who we are'

As for what women want, (and men actually)? Simple - Happiness. The trick is that everyone achieves happiness in a different way

Post by **Chroelle** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 22:57

OH...Good answer.
I still have the tendency to think that not all achieve this shall we call it enlightenment in their own needs. You still have woman partnering up with an asshole, when they just dumped an asshole, because he was an asshole. We are talking grown women here...

Also you see "boys" looking for big breasts as their first priority in a woman way into their fifties...
This should stop for most people at a certain age, when they do realise what they need is actually what they want.
Why is it that some people keep going for the same rather stupid or shallow person/thing? Why do they not learn.
Does that fit the explanation of "because that is who they are..." and if so what are their chances of getting out of this vicious cycle?
Oh....I have to start a topic on social heritage soon...My body is aching to discuss this.

mistergreen77 · Post by **mistergreen77** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:03

Perhaps it is a conflict between biology and culture. From primitive times a woman was most secure with a man who could assert his dominance over others. In modern society women are still attracted to men with aggresive instincts but the same men may find their partners the easiest targets.

As for men being attracted to women with big breats? Any woman can be beautiful if she wants to - but if she doesn't fit our stereotype of beautiful then she might 'let herself go'. Looking after yourself and your looks is important regardless of how you are built. I think (from my own experience) that a man can fall in love with a woman who takes pride in her appearance but will never give the time of day to a woman who is ugly because she thinks she is ugly. This is true for men as well.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:34

I still have the tendency to think that not all achieve this shall we call it enlightenment in their own needs. You still have woman partnering up with an asshole, when they just dumped an asshole, because he was an asshole. We are talking grown women here...

What you have to remember is that, although this may be true, these women may well have had experience of the less confident, less arrogant types of man, and been severely disappointed? Or maybe it is just their personal choice depending on how they personally view 'security' and weigh up the physical and emotional aspects of that word.

As for the big breasts comment or 'BLT' as some look for, I guess something has to inspire you to talk to someone in the first place. I'm not saying this is the correct way to look at things, simply that a catalyst of some sort is required and a lot of the time it is this. This is probably something that is meant to go in that internet thread, but this is one of the advantages of the internet in my opinion. The internet can act as a catalyst, and can act just to convey personality, no looks involved. This isn't always the case, and in fact is probably quite rare but, ..still... a nice thought.

I guess we could individually ask, what people look for? What draws you to a woman/man you don't know in the first place?

Going back to big breasts, there is so much hype nowadays and worry. I find it quite annoying. Girls are constantly trying to improve or look like the latest celebrity or whatever. A lot of the time this isn't because they're so shallow they have nothing to them, it is simply because of the pressure men have placed on them, either in their own personal life or generally by stereotype! In my eyes, something has gone wrong somewhere. Expectations have become so tangled on both sides. Nowadays everyone has this layer of thought about looks, how they look, how they want their partner to look, how it looks to others if they're together. The end result? they forget to choose what truly makes them happy. For some this will be a confident strong male, or a female with large breasts. For others, it'll be a steady, strong relationship not built on how a person looks. And for some it will be somewhere between the two. It is sad that a lot people don't realise what actually does make them happy.

Going for a personal situation, my girlfriend when I first met her was thinking about a changing various aspects of her body, including thoughts regarding a 'boob job'. I'm sure I'm going to get slated by Chris for this, but whatever. I think my response to her sums up how I feel about this whole topic, how I feel about why people should be together and who people should go for:

'If it'd make you truly happy, I'd even help you do it. But don't do it because you think others will find you more attractive like that, or because you think I'd like it. I'm perfectly happy with the way you are, and even happier with who you are. If you have to change yourself for someone, they don't love you, they love someone else, the person they're trying to turn you in to. '

If everyone does this, some will end with confident guys, some with shy guys. Some will end up with girls/guys with the "best" (and I use the term lightly) looks. But if everyone does this, they will each be happy in themselves and in their partners and that is truly something to be proud of, a true achievement and one which should be taken as an example for all.

Post by **Chroelle** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:21

You wrote that guys have put this pressure on girls to dress some specific way. I think girls are even worse at this. I think they see themselves as being in constant competition with every girl around them. I don't think this is healthy at all.
I have never asked my GF to change her appearance. My GF gained some weight after we meet, but I never liked her less, and I tell her that every day.
She has asked me to come spot her in the gym, but I have said no. I don't want to be the guy that sends her to the gym and makes her do hard exercises (even though I can). This is not who I am, and it is no problem for me the way she looks. If she has a problem with it, I will be glad to suggest some exercises, but I will not go down to the gym with her.
When she goes on a diet I follow just to keep it going to help her, and when she falls off the diet I once again follow. I try to make it as clear as possible to her, that I WILL NOT BE THE ONE PUSHING HER TO CHNGE HER LOOKS.
I know that was slightly sidetracked, but after reading Lex's post I just had to write this.

mistergreen77 · Post by **mistergreen77** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 13:37

It would be a natural thing for them to compete against each other over who looks most attractive when you think about it. It is about getting the best partner you can. This is very unromantic but it is scientific. You can observe the same behaviours in any number of different species in the wild. We are also programmed to fall in love with people we have intimate relations with. So be careful!

I know this is supposed to be about roles in society so I will try to keep this relevant. I am not opposed to birth control or anything and I don't want this to be taken politically. The programming for women is to have children. But cultural conditioning is powerful enough to repress this need in modern people. The reason for all the confusion is because of the sexual revolution; because women were able to choose not to have kids. I have no problem with this. I am sure they are much happier not to have so many kids but women who don't have children have no roles except artificial ones. This is not a criticism, just an observation. That doesn't mean many of the artificial roles they make aren't valuable or useful to society - just that they are not natural but cultural.

Overall I think it is a good thing that women can work (have any one of our roles) instead of being mothers and that they compete for our attention nevertheless:D Just my opinion. Good thread

Parvini · Post by **Parvini** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 17:17

I essentially believe, rightly or wrongly, that all ideals of the "perfect man" or "perfect woman" are culturally imbued by ideology and that there is no natural impetus towards these things. The only natural impulse is the desire to have sex, I don't believe that attraction to certain forms is natural at all but rather socially conditioned.

This is why you have different types of women in vogue at certain times, most typically the women with enormous bottoms in African tribes or the fatter women of the Renassiance era when food was less abundent and so being overweight was a rarity and hence a sign of fertility and good breeding.

Presumably in that time a man would get more turned on by a larger woman than a woman conforming to the "ideal" shape now and so it can only be concluded that any profession of "natural desire" is actually illusionary.

mistergreen77 · Post by **mistergreen77** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:58

I agree that there the desire is culturally conditioned but I still contend that the desire itself springs from a natural impetus. Taste is cultural, the desire that taste satisfies is physical. Consider our relation to food. No-one would argue that the natural impulse is simply to eat. Our programming tends to make us prefer foods that contain nutrients we need for example. Same with taste in partners. There cannot be objectively a perfect man or perfect woman, but love typically idealizes its object in to something like perfection. Which is why they say love is blind. With regard to culture I think there is such a thing a sick cultures and healthy cultures. A culture the denigrates the role of mother, treats the role with disrespect and contempt and eliminates the concepts of the feminine and motherhood from its religious systems is not healthy. Our cultural stereotypes about women and beauty are not healthy. So my point is that if the role of motherhood was rewarded more and held in high esteem by the community and its government then more women would be happy to accept it. The fact that many women don't want to be mothers because they see it as boring and tedious is an indictment against our culture.