North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopias?

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North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopias?

Post by eMTe »

Well, we can talk of possible political outcome of recent events in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya, but I think there's much more to say, so lets talk futuristics a bit. Ancient, patriarchal world is slowly, but finally, collapsing and islam has nothing to do with it, religion doesnt matter, it's all about hedonism and globalisation. Even if there will be dictators in future they will not be as mad as Kaddafi, Hussein or Milosevic, all they want will be personal safety and they wont risk ONZ, USA, NATO or another campaign against them. There's facebook, there are cellphones, there's pornography, satellites, global market and we witness the fall of national/religious divisions. Descendants of Kim Jong Il, Chavez, Berlusconi and Castro will seek rather hedonistic pleasures than power over poor uneducated people.

Kaddafi, currently in the spotlight, represents the last generation of power-driven dictators. Within next generation old world in developing countries will tumble down. Imo. I dont know what will come of this, it's another question, but dictatorship will be gone forever as a form of government.

Comments? Let your thoughts fly. 8)

PS: have you seen Kaddafi's son? He looks more like Hollywood actor than son of dictator of African country. I bet he feels misplaced and he would rather be picking up girls on California beaches than playing fool in tv. I bet.

PS 2: and I can bet he already did it.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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I totally blame porn, and refuse to get intellectual.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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I think the proliferation of telecommunications in the form of mobile phones and the internet has really diminished the power of old-world dictators.

It was interesting to learn that, for example in Libya, movie theatres were illegal so that people had fewer places to convene and that very few of population knows any foreign language, because even the teachers can't English or French.

It's easy to see why many countries want to be able to control the flow of information, like the Great Firewall of China (by western technology) or how mobile networks were monitored (by western technology) in Iran. I think one of the biggest f*** yous to government intervention is Google's transparency report's traffic section. (Another example is how in US, Netflix provides data how ISPs cap their customer's internet connections). Mobile phones and the internet are technologies that each nation has to use if they don't want to be totally isolated from the rest of the world, but in the long-term they will break the state's monopoly to information.

It's sad to see how slow the international community has been to help the people of these countries to fight for their destiny, and have played along without wanting to disturb the status quo. In the American movies, the US is the last country to wait for a UN resolution before stepping in to stop a dictator bombing his own people to dust.

I don't, however, see any hope seeing the end to North Korean tyranny in my life-time. I'm glad to be proven wrong.

Gaming trivia: Gaddafi is one of the four world leaders who are still alive and were portrayed in the fantastic game Nuclear War. It's also kind of sad that the most of the countries the leaders fronted are still quite far from western democracies. (Also, if you wondered why Gandhi was so keen on nuclear weapons in Civilization V, it's probably due to this game.)
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Zyx wrote:It's sad to see how slow the international community has been to help the people of these countries to fight for their destiny, and have played along without wanting to disturb the status quo. In the American movies, the US is the last country to wait for a UN resolution before stepping in to stop a dictator bombing his own people to dust.
Sorry to say this, but I never liked this kind of argumentation. "US should help" means "US soldiers should go there and get killed for world safety, because they were born citizens of the most powerful country in the world". There are always living people involved, not imaginary beings like states. It's actually really lucky that they still want to help. China, which is a military superpower also, doesnt get involved in any such events. And probably wont be for a long time.

As for the rest i agree. 8)
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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eMTe wrote:
Zyx wrote:It's sad to see how slow the international community has been to help the people of these countries to fight for their destiny, and have played along without wanting to disturb the status quo. In the American movies, the US is the last country to wait for a UN resolution before stepping in to stop a dictator bombing his own people to dust.
Sorry to say this, but I never liked this kind of argumentation. "US should help" means "US soldiers should go there and get killed for world safety, because they were born citizens of the most powerful country in the world".
I should have reprashed that, because I do agree with you. What I meant was that how the American culture paints itself as the defender of the free world(tm) and how in the western narrative of democracy dictators are always overthrown, but the reality is different (the realpolitik with the last dictators). On the other hand, I was also quite surprised how quickly France scrambled their jets to Libya and how quickly, once the resolution was made, the allied forces made strikes. Those plans weren't made overnight. But anyway, nice to see UN act - sad it had to be a violent intervention. Let's hope they can wrap this thing up quickly and minimize the bloodshed on all fronts.

Then again, very rarely do we have conflicts where the other side is, by all accounts, insane and "evil".

And, yes, it would be nice to see China take part in international operations. They do some infrastructure work in Africa, but mostly because they get resources in return. They don't really want to piss off the countries with anti-western sentiments that deal with them. As long as the African Union supports Gaddafi, China will as well. I hope things like this don't balkanize the UN.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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I was not that surprised to see France go in so fast. I hate to say this, but I think this was a politic puppetplay. France (Sarkozy) was recently accused of being too weak and unparticipating in their foreign politics. I see this as a reation to that statement. But I am in no way pointing any fingers here, because I am glad to see them react, no matter the political reasoning behind it. I think the Libyan people need help - yesterday - and if it has to come in a military manner, then I hope it can be done with the precision and needlepoint accuracy, that we have seen before, when western armies intervene with much inferior (militarywise) nations. No loss of lives would be a great result for this intervention indeed! But of course there will be some losses...sadly!
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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There are protests already. From Russia and Arab League. Figures. World has become way too predictable to be interesting.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Funny enough that there are protests from the Arab League. They were the ones who shouted for help and a non-fly zone the loudest. Now they say there is no need for bombs and they just want the population protected. If they don't like the way the UNO handles the situation, maybe they should go there themself and show how to protect the citizens without using miltary actions.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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What they say is not what they mean, remember.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Pater Alf wrote:Funny enough that there are protests from the Arab League. They were the ones who shouted for help and a non-fly zone the loudest. Now they say there is no need for bombs and they just want the population protected. If they don't like the way the UNO handles the situation, maybe they should go there themself and show how to protect the citizens without using miltary actions.
Sure, they were all for no-fly zone, but once the Westerners started to make military strikes they figured that, wait a sec, some of us also used violence to smack down our Jasmine revolutions, could those guys come for us next? Especially now that it's supposed to be non-US led, UN-backed mission, US-friendly Yemen and Bahrain might feel a bit ... uneasy.

There have been many good background articles over on The Economist. I've taken a habit to listen to their audio edition each week when I'm taking my dog out.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Well, it looks like the finishing cuts. Sure, it might take some time to restore order and economy (and dump islamic sects, who may be danger to countries like Somalia, but not to people in Libya - Kaddafi as an oldschool dictator viewed taleban just as dangerous to his power as Scandinavian sexual freedom or American first amendment), but this is the end of Libya weve read in newspapers over the last decades.

Like Iraq, it wont turn into democracy at once, but it wont turn into dictatorship anymore, that's sure. Once you taste the freedom, you just want more freedom, it MUST work also for Arab societies.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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All my childhood heroes have come to an end... Arafat, Gadaffi, Saddam... In my child's heart, they occupied a vast space and got woven into many, many tales. Ah, innocence.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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You mean childhood villains. :)
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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eMTe wrote:You mean childhood villains. :)
I wouldn't count Arafat as a villain, and besides, Fidel's still going pretty strong. :D

But yes, the icons of our generation's childhood are long gone for most part.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Fidel is old, ill and near death.

But I have to agree that certain generation of dictators is gone. Chavez is still here, but I dont really treat him as a true villain, he's not mad. He's just a hardcore version of Berlusconi and probably would flee his country at the first sign of danger. The only ones remaining are Kim and Mugabe (but Mugabe is also old and probably soon gone). I dont know what happens in African countries like Chad, Central African Republic, Zair and such. But I feel, even if corruption and ethnic persecutions are still there, there's no dictatorship star on the firmament. They're probably all oportunists.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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eMTe wrote:Fidel is old, ill and near death.
That reminds me, another iconic dictator resigned today.

Anyway, looks like Gaddafi is pretty loony, the rebels found an album full of photos of Condoleezza Rice. :rose:
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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That reminds me I had a folder with Sarah Palin photos. Of course only those where her knees are visible.

Btw, Condoleezza wears no glasses, so I dont know what Kaddafi was so mad about.

Who resigned today?
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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eMTe wrote:You mean childhood villains. :)
Not really, they were heroes to me. Of course, I also had Gorbachev, Scwarzenegger and Freddy Krueger for my heroes.

At least we still have a certain North Korean dictator posturing about.
eMTe wrote:That reminds me I had a folder with Sarah Palin photos. Of course only those where her knees are visible.
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Re: North Africa crisis - beginning of the end of antiutopia

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Not a very good one.
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