Practical philosphy ^_^ - key(s) of making good members

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Practical philosphy ^_^ - key(s) of making good members

Post by Maz »

I believe there is few keys to make things so that newcomers on some forum will love to contribute some real content on a site.

Preface:
It is important to get fresh blood on forums.
It is important to get 'good' members on a forum, and keep them.
Reason for this? Well, it's simple. Members are what really makes a forum. Without new blood forum will easily turn out a playground for a few regulars, who will create their own lil community, which easily turns out to be repulsive towards newcomers. And even if it would not be that intentionally, it is difficult for people to get into a group which has their own jokes, topics and ways to communicate. And when old folks leave (eventually that usually happens, if people do not get bored, lose internetconnection, get busy in RL, they will at least die eventually.)

So achieve the goal of making good new members we must first understand the motives people may have to be there. I will just throw out some examples, you can add more :)

One can be searching for knowledge on some topic. One can just be bored and accidentally bumb into some interesting topic. One can want something he cannot get by other means but posting (example OG and games [the points system] )

Well, basically those who wish to gain knowledge often just post the question and if they get the answer, they will leave. Of course, if answer was good, and soleed the problem they might come back with another question. Or then they may see someone asking something they know, and decide to help..

The wanderers usually just seek for amusement. Or company or...
And those who post just to get something, want of course to get what they want.

So, how to keep these people on a board?

1. there must be interesting things to read. All starts from this. If people do not see interesting topics, they will not stay. Internet offers so much that people do not bother to read boring stuff (that makes me to think why am I babbling now? :D )

2. There must be an easy way to make people to participate, or then something should be offered when people do participate.

The part 1 is difficult when starting a forum. Empty forum is hardly interesting. So first there should be enough people starting it, and those should be active enough to post interesting topics with only a few replys (since at start there is probably not many people posting). I could say this is the first critical step. Since after the first posts have been made, and things start to go on, there will be the style in the forum. With the style I mean the athmosphere. So first posts should be not only interesting, but also frienly & warm. No one likes to be on nasty forum for too long, and if they do, then at least nasty forum will not be too attractive for newcomers. And later it easily turns to be fightinground where nasty mods ban everyone who do not agree with them. It's just the way it goes, the system feeds itself.

The nice athmosphere should be also constantly maintained, since things can turn out nasty quite quickly. And it's always easy to spoil things, correcting them is much more difficult. I just feel I cannot say it sharply enough, so I will say it many times: When a newcomer arrives, it might be high step for him/her to do his/her first post. So part 2 helps there. And so much depends on which kind of replies does users first posts get. If they get no replies, then he will 100% surely leave. If he gets nasty answers, he will turn nasty himself. But if he gets opinions which are explained, and especially if everyone puts some effort on their replies adds something or disagrees. Remember, there is different ways to disagree. You can just make other to look stupid, or then you can explain your point of view. I know, oh believe me I do, sometimes it's just so attempting to make other poster look like a fool, but it might sacre them off. Instead doing explained reply does encourage person to explain his point of view better, if he still think the same way ;) Also that is the way to make friends instead of enemies. And since we cannot just believe that every people on a forum bothers to think what's best for a forum, this task of writing good replys is crew's task. Another task for crew is to keep the tone of posts nice. Not by being nasty themself, but by being strict enough and still fair. So much depends on mods/admins...

Always this is not enough itself. Often there is good to be some other hooks to make people addicted. This is why somekind of ranks/postcount/reputation feature is great. I myself was once addicted into points system at OG, I desperately wanted to reach next level, but at the same time I wished to have reputation as good converser with valid points, not just a spammer with lot of posts. And of course, if crew notices people who do good posts, it does raise the spirit and encourage to be even better :)

I believe that was what made OG so special back then. There were interesting topics, and good fellows in the crew/amongst older regulars with high status, who did not turn down nebies, but let them hear if they were good :) Also available positions in crew were attemptong ;) Of course one cannot expand crew to contain 50% of forum regulars, but somekind of 'status' would be good to be given IMO ;) Of course this status should be something one cannot ask for, it should be something that is just suddenly given, when people notice someone is a good fellow. On larger sites this could be made so, that not only crew could give that status, but also others with the same status. Lets say if some amount of 'statused' peole votes for giving the 'status' to certain newcomer, he will get it.

Technically this would not probably be even too hard to make ;)

Oh heck, time is so much that I must to run. But Let's continue this psychological/philosophical pondering, and I do wish others would let me heard their opinions etc, so I would have a reason to write more... ...
(You see the point/pattern I have here? ;) )
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Post by Parvini »

This actually resonates with current talk at BD here and in the crew forum at OG.

I actually think this a positive solution to the woes we've all been speaking of. I've personally been to very nasty forums in the past... like this one: http://www.onlineonslaught.com/OOForums/ where they have a culture of bullying, punishing and openly abusing newbies - even fairly articulate ones like me ;). I don't think OG has ever been anything near being like that.

The thing is, and we've talked about this already in those other threads fadedmind, is that so many newbies don't make the intellegent points, so many of them spam and if half of the regulars are doing the same thing in the guise of a "bar" who can blame them?

I totally agree with you that "interesting topics" create a great forum but, as I've already said, what can we do? If the newbs don't contribute what can make them?

I'm sort of with Maz on this - most people seem to be idiots. We occassionally get the exception to the rule (e.g. Leo) who become regulars and get involved but, for whatever reason, this seems to happen less and less.
"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n" - John Milton (Paradise Lost, Book I, lines 254-55)
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Post by Maz »

Oh yes. I agree with Maz more than you can imagine... What we can do is to try to attract and addict those few people with brains coming into a forum. And remember, if someone has been on a forum with nasty athmosphere, he has probably learned that postingstyle... Changing that requires effort. And I was not only talking about OG, which I do not care at all anymore (due to some personal issues I will not talk about, I only say it is not related with moderators) I was talking in general level. And aiming to try to wake up some conversation in here, and to give people who wish good for this forum some, perhaps fresh thoughts...

So basically what I am trying to discuss is the ways of making this forum to flourish. To make the intelligent people to stay. I think one problem with OG is that it is so full of crap. Newcomer will probably first enter to a) games section and b) townhall. And regular games forum & townhall is so flooded with utter crap, that it's hard to find anything interesting from there, not to mention anything that encourages to sink into deep discussion... People like Leo have probably accidentally bumbed into MAU, depth games or senate, and found some topic they think is interesting.. Then written a post or two, got interesting replies and ended up to be addicted :) Question is that how many intelligent peoples have

a) bothered to answer in spammyish "when was the last time you washed your thongs?" style topics,

b) read couple of those and left without even noticing serious topics..

I believe that the thong example stylish posts in most visited areas do attract only spammers.

Ok ok. Of course humour can be used as one hook, but the style of humour must be selected correctly. Someone at age of 11 might think talking about wearing dirty thongs for a month is funny, but I am quite positive not all of us...

Anyways, humour should not be ignored as I did in my openingpost. In fact, I ignored humour only cause I was in hurry...
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Post by Parvini »

The thing is fadedmind (what was your OG name?) - that the ones who are interested should find the "quality" forums themselves. There is a poster called "Aces" for example who used to post in "In-depth gaming" all the time - long and interesting posts.

It is just that this seems to be happening less and less. We need to rely on more than luck to attract such posters.
"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n" - John Milton (Paradise Lost, Book I, lines 254-55)
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Post by Chroelle »

First of all...
Get Lleo in here Parvini :D

Secon of all. I have participated in all three threads on the subject and I think I have made clear that I would rather have mods being GUIDES than POLICE. A reminder to spammers or cheaters have often helped quite a lot. People interested in the forums is the very cornerstone that makes a brilliant forum. If you ahve members that are dedicated to the forum and use it in a guiding way, helping eachother then newcomers will adopt this forum-style.
I'm sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, but take this as a compliment. Ari_G, Chillum and JCSY are all members in here, and have all got a warn on OG. Pepsi got one too as far as I remember.
Heck I think even Gendo had one...
Me and schmidter had a relatively heated discussion on an avatar he used at some point showing an Angel and a devil corpulating... Read his sig at OG and you will see witness to this. I still consider him a good member, and since we could discuss this witout getting into personal slander I think even higher of him.
Chillum had my bells ringing too. The mere username suggested illegal activity, but I had to back off, as he actually told me his reasons for using it.
So, many members turn if they are engaged in a polite manner, and told that this forum means alot to some. And they would propably feel the same way if they tried staying for a while.

Im running out of time too, and haven't read the rest of new posts, so I will return to this topic later.
Great discussion. Will do great goods for this community.
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Post by Maz »

Yes Parv. Interested people should indeed find the forums themself. Also my teeth should not be aching and ... Unfortunately truth is, that people do not necessarily even notice good forums/topics especially when those are surrounded by utter crap. That's just a fact. I take myself as an example. When I first joined to OG, I had never been on a forum. So I had no idea what kind of things I would like to write about. After a while I noticed what kind of topics suited me... But... If I entered to OG at it's nowadays state, I might have left it without bothering more...

Anyways, I did not start this to talk about OG. I started this to sum up some experiences I have gathered, and perhaps to give odd idea or two to Chrolle and Monte, about how to attract people. If I do a short summary, without explaining (I did most of explainin in previous posts already)

1. something that attracts people on the site. It can be freeware in this case :)
2. Something that keeps people reading, and makes them to participate perhaps by offering some goods for first few posts. Of course quality topics play a huge role in here already!
3. Something that keep people posting. Challenging, polite, interesting answers do play enormous role in this. Also adding some other hooks like points/reputation/postcount/status ... will be good idea (IMO)


Also controlling contents with strict but fair hand, and giving a second chance in a way that poster do not feel he is not liked/be irritated to the point he turns to PITA is needed.. (Curlies point about JCSY and others was valid ;) )

And finally, what comes to my OG nick... For me OG is history. I do not wish to look back. So fadedmind my nick is, and fadedmind it will be :) Thanks for asking anyways, it feels like I had some affect on you since you cared of my former doings :D
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Post by Parvini »

God! :shock: Something just hit me... Maz's date of birth is on 12/03/1979 and... yours... is too... Spooky! For a second there I thought I may have been having the same conversation with two completely different people on two compeltely different forums who just happend to be born on the same day!!!

Come here out of the shadows "fadedmind" - :Bearhug: actually no, it is not in my nature to give hugs... lol

To tell the the truth it never even occured to me once that I was talking to the same person!!! :blush: :oops: :doh:

You are a master of disguise! From now on I think I'll call you TAFKAM - "The artist formerly known as Maz", ok? :)
"The mind is its own place, and in itself/ Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n" - John Milton (Paradise Lost, Book I, lines 254-55)
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Post by Maz »

LoL :D

TAFKAM suits me just well ;)

Okay.. Let's look the topic again. What role do you think humour plays in this scenario? And what kind of humour?

Personally when I joined to OG, I did not care about humour too much (what comes to the crew back then). I mean, I honoured the crew, and looked up at them (D'oh, how naive one can be? :p ) But since I at least used to be a jolly guy, I did enjoy humour. That means I did like reading amusing posts by some other members, and it was important to me that others could take my odd(ish) humour so well. (Sorry Parv. I know you're a 'perfect english freak', but since english is not my native language, and I cannot be bothered to spend eternity on thinking how I should spell things, I do drop word sence which I'm positive I should use in conjunction with word humour, at least at some places.)

On the otherhand, I have always found 'poo' humour repulsive even though many people do laugh at it. I do not have any religious or other reasons to dislike it, I have of course been raised to not tell dirty jokes like many of us, but I think that's not the reason... I just cannot see anything funny in saying poo or piss or...

On the otherhand, I am one of those who believe that there is no topic one could not joke with. I understand it may hurt someones feelings when people are joking about god or suicides or cancer or... but personally I do not see anything wrong with it. Anyways, since a forum consisting only of one member, even if he was TAFKAM is not really good... So we must play with other's rules at some extent... Since I do not myself have anything against joking about serious things, I cannot really imagine how it affects on people. Do you think having 'good taste' limit in jokes is a must?

Then yet another topic... Many forums have a forum where people can freely insult others, and those who enter to that forum must just accept it... Is it good to have such a place? I am a bit unsure about this... But I tend to think it's not good...

On the otherhand, I think people must have a right to do strong opinnionated posts, even though it may hurt some sensitive peoples who are believing in quite opposite things. As long as discussion do not go into PERSONAL level. Attacking against other's ideas is far different from attacking against other's personality. Still... A hard attack against newcomers opinions may of course scare them off... What do you think about that?

Basically I believe that members should be allowed to make their points clear, as long as they concentrate on the point. But again I would give a big responsibility to crew, to be a bit more gentle, so that newcomer would also notice that even though he is not being agreed withm his opinion has been heard, and his if not opinion, at least participating has been appreciated. That balancing between telling ones own point of view, and still respecting the author with quite opposite point of view is hard task...

mm... Any other factors you think affects on how people like being on a forum?
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Post by Dizi »

I think that if other members have the right attitude on the forum then that can attract others to want to stay on the forum.

If for example somebody comes onto a forum and asks for help and they get a response that helps them but isn't all that friendly then in might make someone think twice about posting there again. But if it is answered and the member who answered was friendly then it might encourage that member to have a look around other threads, as they would feel more welcomed.

Again intresting threads are key as there is only so many times you can answer things like what is your favourite colour for a duck. That is why I decided to combine many of those pointless threads to make one, so that those type of threads flood this forum. If somebody is asking an intresting question that gets many opions and a discussion is formed rather than a series of short posts. Then someone who has just joined the forum might get intrested in one of the debates.

But the main key to making good new members is good old members. If a new person feel welcomed into a forum from the start and see how other members treat a forum then chances are that they would fall in line too.

There will always be those new members that don't read the rules and just post something that is spam, but I have found that 9 times out of 10 if you explain to them about the forum they usually behave themselves after that. I have also noticed that those that make duplicate or spam threads that just get them cloesed without a friendly explination normally will do it again.

So really what I am trying to say to make good members, the forum has to have good friendly caring members that are willing to except that people will make mistakes. Also real discussions rather than spam.

Then there are the mods and Admin. They have to be friendly, and understanding in my opinion. Who give someone the benifit oif the doubt when they spam (at first). Also they need to treet new and old members the same. Spam is spam after all no matter how long a member has been there and contributed to the forum. If older members get special treatment then this shows new members that the mods are bias, and its unfair to have a different set of rules just depending on how long somone has been on the forum. After all the older member should know better then to do that, while a newer member might be new to the whole forum life in genral not just to the rules of that forum.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the lure of the bar. I find that a lot of new members are scared of such places due to the high post count. Although I like the idea of the bar as it gives people the chance to talk about random off topic things and get to know other members. I doo think that in some cases membrs do take advantage of this and end up locking themselves away in the bar thread rather then going out onto other parts of the forum, or get carried away with pointess spam posts (something that I am not going to stand for in this bar at all). Plus I feel it can sometimes create a wall between new and old, thats why at OG I invite new members to come and introduce themselevs and meet some of the other members. This I feel lets them know that it is ok to go in there rather then feel like an outsider...as it took me a good few months before I went into the bar at OG and I only did as I noticed Lex had wished me a happy birthday in there.

*sorry if my spelling is crap but I don't have time to check it...I might later though if it is really bad :p
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Post by Chroelle »

EDIT: Please be aware that I was writing this at the same time as Dizi was writing hers, so we are not just repeating.... I have not commented on Dizi's comment yet. I propably will though. /EDIT

Well first of all I think the idea of a forum populated by TAFKAM only sounds like a perfect way to study the human mind :D.

Actually I have the same experiences that you have Fadedmind. The first visit to a specific forum was fun and scary at the same time. You had to think about posting for a while before you actually hit the submit button.

The goal in here I would prefer is to make this threshold lower, and thereby more inviting to step over. If people would like to join, then let them. And if their humour is not to my liking, but not flaming, racial or spamming, then for gods sake, I just don't care for them...
MEANING: They are more than welcome to join, participate and such, but I might not find them interesting. More or less like in RL, I will just avoid talking to this person specifically. The very same member could ofcourse have a lot in common with another member, and shoud therefore be allowed to communicate this on the forum.
I am not the oppinion-maker on this forum. I might try to make people think the same way as me, but I won't make them.

Therefore I think humour is a great thing to use in a forum. One of the most fun things I took part in, was SHP's stories, and the bar, when people interacted in there. (interacted = made the appearance of a situation actually happening - like midnighthag that tumbled onto some young lad, and then the member that was the young lad responded something like :

"ouch - watch it you old crone"
*Moves midnighthag off of lap, and suddenly smells something funny*
"what is that smell"

These things could go on for pages of the bar, and you never wanted to not read up on the whole thing.

SHP's long stories was quite a blast, and I hope that he will do something similar again (or something completely new).

Enough on OG.

This forum:
Well, as I stated previously, the mods of this forum is supposed to welcome newcomers, and help them. I am actually thinkin of a few ways to do so. If we look through the rules of the individual subforums of this forum, then we will see a tone already taking shape. It is a bit harsh, but none the less clear. I am thinking if maybe this clarity could be found through another way that invites people to post without hesitation (not meaning spam). A lot of topics are already about spam, and I think that the phenomenon spam is in itself a very individual size and shape. Some have already asked what spam is to the individual mod. Therefor I think we should remove that word from the rules, and maybe thereby clarify to newcomers that they need to follow specific rules, and if they feel they have stayed within the lines, we are willing to hear their argument.
Is spam a post of 3 words?
Is spam a post of 5 words?
Is spam a post of 12 words?
IS spam a post of 20 words?

When is a message spam?
At what point did this particular post turn into a meaningful post and not just spam.
Would you call my first sentence if posted alone spam?

The reason we need to clarify things are of course to make the individual member more sure on their post. Hence I do not feel we should give out warns to people who have just entered the forum and decided to post. When we feel they are doing this intentionally then we warn. (Intentionally spamming - not posting :D )

But other than that our finest job is not to be warners or banners, policemen or mighty slayers of spammers, but on the other hand be polite guides, helpers and dedicatées to this forum and it's community. A new member is also part of the community.

That is also one of the reasons for not making a points-system. If you came to OG at present time and date, would you start a points-race, where you gain 10-20 points a week, when the top members have almost 10.000 points?
I propably wouldn't. That is why I think we need to follow FM's idea of:
I believe that was what made OG so special back then. There were interesting topics, and good fellows in the crew/amongst older regulars with high status, who did not turn down nebies, but let them hear if they were good Also available positions in crew were attemptong Of course one cannot expand crew to contain 50% of forum regulars, but somekind of 'status' would be good to be given IMO Of course this status should be something one cannot ask for, it should be something that is just suddenly given, when people notice someone is a good fellow. On larger sites this could be made so, that not only crew could give that status, but also others with the same status. Lets say if some amount of 'statused' peole votes for giving the 'status' to certain newcomer, he will get it.

Technically this would not probably be even too hard to make
I'm looking forward to hearing more on this last comment... :D

You all know that I have always been a big fan of reviewing and making squads of non-crew members. This is one of the reasons.
If people could join up for squads and be part of the site this way then it would be great. Chillum is game hunter leader. A squad that could contain 2-3 members excluding himself, if the site goes bigger. Also other squads like reviewsquads will become available, and of course reviewers in general. Meaning people who write reviews, and people who validate them...If such a thing can be made (by us).
Also we will propably have some researchers and some other people working on the site. Please post suggestions that we can work towards. All in all the idea is to make everybody on the site feel as if they are contributing to the site.
You also see that I have posted for coders FM :D
I have discussed the idea of avatar teams, smilie teams and such. Squads that was supposed to find smilies and avatars that would be great for the site. Of course these postions were time-limited.

The idea of popularity and points seems rather selfdestructive when thinking of it this way. The older OG becomes the less people will join I fear, as the more members have more than a couple of thousand points. OG is addictive because of its pointssystem. Let's make something equally addicting, but that one could be a part of right off the street :D
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Post by Maz »

This is now an off topic post but...
Curlie, I tried to reach you via MSN last weekend. Unfortunately my schedule is such that I cannot concentrate on anything untill at the evening, meaning 10 PM - due to the fact that kiddo is up untill then (22, GMT+2).

I was trying to reach you to discuss about the coding ;) I will be here this evening too, after 21 or 22 PM (GMT+2), but I should start reading for an exam... Although, I think I will postpone that till tomorrow :p

Once again, sorry for offtopic post, you can delete this after you have read it Curl ;)
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Post by Chroelle »

No need...Thanks for telling me. I saw your MSN-window, but too late as my GF was already shutting down the computer. We were going to bed, as we came home late. Sorry to hear that Fadedmind Jr. wont sleep. Will try to help you with this later. This is my area of expertise.... :D

I will see if I am in here tonight. Me and the GF might be having a cozy evening (wipe that smile of your face - not cozy that way) because I passed my theory test today.

Back on topic.

Dizi: I see your point. A bar is a dangerous place, as some members only show themselves in there. Also ALAS it is the same place that we get to know eachother better.
I cannot find any real restrictions or answers to this problem. A good moderation and more clear rules for the bar may help. Currently there aren't that many rules for the bars of different forums... Maybe we should make a rule-set that invites to join, but clearly states that there are other threads on the forum. This is for getting to know eachother... Not for small talk. Chatrooms are for small talk... And BTW Fogtoo might make an IRC channel, but we have discussed the pros and cons for this. A newly started forum might be cripled by an IRC, and at the same time I have felt on my own skin how much an IRC can make discussions seem hopelesly ... like you had to have been there to understand the joke.... (I totally forgot a word there).
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Post by jcsychristina »

i was looking for a post i made using the search only 2 drop upon my nick being used in here , twice if im not blind enough 2 read

hi faded :)

basically the key to be a good member is always strife to be better than what u are now (dont over do it) :P

considering everyone made long posts, im gonna make a short one instead

be friendly, be happy, be commited, and be humble :)
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Post by Ogre »

On the otherhand, I am one of those who believe that there is no topic one could not joke with. I understand it may hurt someones feelings when people are joking about god or suicides or cancer or... but personally I do not see anything wrong with it. Anyways, since a forum consisting only of one member, even if he was TAFKAM is not really good... So we must play with other's rules at some extent... Since I do not myself have anything against joking about serious things, I cannot really imagine how it affects on people. Do you think having 'good taste' limit in jokes is a must?
I think that the majority of people here are mature enough to know when something is in bad taste enough to be offensive, so I don't really think it's something that need to be addressed yet. If the situation does pop up down the track, then it should be easy enough to disarm with a friendly comment and a well placed smiley or 2 - and not lose any members over it.

With regard to attracting and keeping quality members -

I don't think you guys have anything to be concerned about.
All you have to do to attract and keep good members is: continue to be the people that you are. Like attracts like. Even if new 'bad' members join, they will certainly be 'converted' by the light-hearted mood and great character that (IMO) has already been established here.

This thread is a good example of the kind of character I am talking about - It shows that you guys care and want things to be even better than they already are.

OK...that's enough butt kissing from me for now ;)
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Chroelle
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Post by Chroelle »

And just as my cheeks were feeling glad again :D

Honestly I am thinking of making this thread a TO READ for crew members, and general members too.
The things that have been clarified in here might MAKE this forum. It seems that people are totally ready for such a forum. The only thing we need is a way of keeping this faith in the idea.
If this could work then maybe Darklord was right with his ideal forum :D

I fint the spirit in here very pleasing. Even though there have already been heated debates on zodiacs, and the bar thread, it seems that we will bwe able to make this kind of forum.
Once more I will throw this sentence out to every participating member of this growing community:
I APPRECIATE IT :D THANKS
Currently testing Life version 2.9 (With added second child)
(Beta testing in progress)

www.paed-it.dk - My blog in Danish

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
--Mark Twain
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